tv Erin Burnett Out Front CNN February 27, 2013 8:00pm-9:00pm PST
good evening, everyone. tonight, abuse victim or predator? hot-blooded lover, cold-blooded killer s killer? the many faces of jodi arias. today was day 12 of her on the stand. later, on the trial of a fugitive mexican priest. he was already a suspected child rapist when he came to los angeles, an alleged serial rapist by the time he fled, and get this, the man who helped him escape justice was a top church official. we begin tonight with a father's tearful plea. do everything so no dad, no parent has to feel inside the way he is feeling tonight. do something so no parent has to walk past a son or daughter's empty room. do something. neal hessin's son jesse was taken from sandy hook elementary
school on the 8th of december. jesse and 19 other children killed. her testimony on stopping the next newtown. they heard from hesslin himself about the heartbreaking simplicity leading up to it. the things you take for grand because you assume there will be many, many more. >> the morning that jesse stopped at the deli and got his favorite sandwich, sausage, egg and cheese on a hard roll. and he ordered me one. he would always do that. i would get a coffee and jesse would get what he called a coffee but it was a hot chocolate. we proceeded at the school. it was 9:04 when i dropped jesse off. the school clock.
jesse gave me a hug and a kiss at that time, said goodbye, i love you. he stopped and he said, i love mom, too. that was the last i saw jesse. prior to that, when he was getting out of the truck, he hugged me and held me. and i can still feel that hug and that pat on the back. he said, everything will be okay, dad. it's all going to be okay. and it wasn't okay. >> it certainly was not okay. lawmakers now seem at odds about how to prevent the next gun massacre. they're fighting over an assault weapons ban, as you know, limiting capacity. the national rifle association once favored and now it opposes.
between washington police chief reggie flynn and lindsey graham. >> when 80 people fail a background check, what kind of deterrent is that? the law is obviously not seeing that as important. if it's such an important issue, why aren't we prosecuting people who fail a background check? there are 15 questions there. they're not hard to understand if you're filling out the form. so i'm a business frustrated that we say one thing, how important it is, but in the real world we do absolutely nothing to enforce the laws on the books. >> just for the record from my point of view, senator, the purpose of the background check -- >> how many cases have you made -- >> it doesn't matter. it's a paper thing. i want to stop -- i want to finish the answer. i want to stop 76,000 people from buying guns illegally. that's what a background check does. if you think we're going to do paperwork prosecutions, you're
wrong. >> with no agreement over policy, i want to turn back to the personal and neil heslin who joins us tonight. mr. heslin, you spoke incredibly moving today about the last moments with your son. as you think back to that terrible day, what memory sticks with you the most? >> most touching is probably when he was getting out of the truck with me and i was unhooking his seat belt. he gave me a hug and embraced me and was patting me on the back and holding me. >> why is it important for you and so important for you to have been in washington today to testify, to speak not only about gun control but about your son? >> well, i just feel that it's something i have to do. i feel i'm jesse's voice, and i feel there's got to be changes
made. and not just one change, but several changes to be effective. >> you talked today about changes in mental health laws and background checks and gun control legislation and high-capacity magazines. is there one, or to you is it you want all of these things to be acted upon? >> i think any change is going to help, but i think for it to be a significant change, they all have to take place. what happened at sandy hook elementary was many factors that led to that. the main cause was an assault-style weapon that was carried out -- that carried the massacre out. the main component of that was a
high-capacity magazine. >> how difficult is it for you to enter the public arena? the issues surrounding this are very contentious and there's different sides, and the sides are firmly drawn and there are emotions on both sides. just as somebody who is experiencing grief and who is still in the midst of this and will be for the rest of your life, really, how is it -- how difficult is it to enter the public arena? >> if i didn't speak up and try to make a change, i would feel that i was letting my son down. but it's the hardest and worst day of my life was the day i lost my son jesse, december 14. >> your son was 6 and a half, and after listening to your testimony today, and i listened to it several times, i felt i got to know him just a little bit, and i was thankful for that. is there something you want
people to know tonight about your son, about the little boy that he was? >> well, if you met jesse once, you would never forget him. he was a very strong force, very friendly child. he was wise beyond his years. he cared about everybody. went out of his way to help, and animals, he cared for them. and people. he always put other people before himself and tried to help them and i remember so many times when jesse would hear a baby cry, he would run over and try to cheer the baby up, whether it was with keys or standing on his head. he just was a wonderful,
wonderful person. he was my best friend and my buddy. >> stay strong. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> it's hard to imagine. let me know what you think. follow me on twitter on anderson cooper. next we'll go to rome for pope benedict's final speech. later, who is the real jodi arias? the prosecution still trying to break down her claims of abuse and self-defense, trying to paint her as a very willing partner in some very concensual acts. a lot of details up ahead. when you have diabetes...
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[ male announcer ] try alka seltzer plus severe sinus day and night for complete relief from your worst sinus symptoms. welcome back. it isn't often the pope says farewell. that is what happened today. there is that and that is plenty but there is also the pomp and imagine stay that no one alive has ever scene before. [ applause ] >> to have seen more than 150,000 believers, the pope made history. in an unusual and personal public address.
>> . an unprecedented moment in modern times. not for 600 years has a pontiff voluntarily relinquished his post. it was a decision that sent shock waves still being felt in the church. today he tried to explain why. >> in the last month i felt like my strength had decreased and i asked god ernestly in prayer to help me make the right decision not for my sake but for the good of the church. i have taken this step in full awareness of its severity, but also knew with a deep peace of mind. thrust on the stage in 2005, the oldest pope in 275 years.
dedicated, he also had like prada and playing the piano. leaving behind a legacy of returning the church to a more conservative path. in fact he acknowledged it in his final address. the lord has given us sunshine and light breeze, the days when the fishing was plentiful, and there was also times when the water was rough and the wind and the lord seemed to sleep. >> the pope said he assured god would not let the church sink. he can be called his holiness pope benedict the xvi. he'll wear his traditional white roe robes, and while he'll consider residing at the vatican, they said he'll most likely never be seen again. the red shoes gone and the office and his personal seal will be destroyed. many questions have been made about what changes will be coming to the church. for today, the focus was on this
servant of god who, in his final words said, quote, the pope is never alone, and now i experience it in a way that so touches the heart. >> i spoke earlier with chr christiane amanpour. he seemed to be making reference to the corruption that plagued and continued to plague the church. >> and the pope spoke about so many of the challenges that continue to face the church. but yes, these scandals that have rocked the church and the vatican and almost every diocese in the united states, i might add, as well as in europe over the last 12 to 14 years. he was saying that this has been shocking and stormy waters, that the church has sometimes seemed to be flying against the wind.
but he then went on to say that he knew god wouldn't allow the church to sink. so yes, i think clearly making reference to this on his final general audience, his final public appearance. >> yet he made no real direct mention of the child abuse scandals, which i imagine for some people have been directly affected. it's not going to be enough, the fact that he didn't actually bring it up specifically? >> well, it was unlikely he was ever going to bring it up specifically on this day. but you're right, there are so many people, particularly in the united states, who have so many unanswered questions and so much unfinished business. we've been talking to vatican experts, to priests, even to cardinals, and they know that while the pope has talked about zero tolerance, that that hasn't fully gone into effect, that they know that while abusers have been criticized and singled out, while those who have been abused have been apologized to and met by the pope, that there is a lot of unfinished business,
particularly those in the hierarchy who shielded priests who abused young people, young boys in these churches. so even those who are very devoted to pope benedict xvi know that the next pope must finish this business, must institute the kind of reform that will bring full transparency and accountability. >> you were in st. peter's square today. you were there back when the pope was elected. i want to hear the reaction you were hearing today. what do people make of his remarks? >> we >> reporter: well, look, people came out. anderson, there was nothing like the crowds we thought we saw when pope john paul died and then when the next conclave elected pope benedict xvi. this pope is deeply loved by the very sincere and devoted and devout roman catholics, but he's considered more of a professor, more of a theologian, more of an
intellectual, someone who was more of an intellectual than pope john paul. >> any idea when the conclave will begin to select the new pope? they're all there. >> reporter: they are pretty much all here, and they had a time to gather at his resignation, which was announced a couple weeks ago. they're not all here yet, and we understand that the first formal meeting of all the cardinals will happen on monday, and only then will they decide what date to actually establish the first day of the conclave, and at that point those cardinals who are eligible to vote will start their secret deliberations. we're not sure when. we're told somewhere potentially around the 9th, 10th, 11th of march. >> christiane, i appreciate it. he's been stripped of public duties after thousands of pages,
thousands of pages of internal church documents revealed his role as archbishop of los angeles in shielding sexual predators from justice. tonight in an especially egregious name from those files which is now allegedly a fugitive from the church of justice. >> reporter: the first time cardinal roger mahoney heard of cardinal aguilar was because they wanted him gone in mexico. there was an allegation from lawyers questioned of mahoney in a deposition, allegations mahoney denied. even with those allegations, mahoney agreed to bring aguilar to los angeles. it didn't take long for aguilar to begin terrorizing children in his new archdiocese.
>> by then there were 26 victims. >> reporter: former lapd detective federico seacard worked on this case. >> back in january 1988, around 8:30 in the morning, we got a call on the police radio, and we were directed to go to this particular school near the ho holland beck area. >> he went to our lady of gaudalupe to find four children he said were molested. >> it was horrible because of what the kids were telling us. >> reporter: but seacart never had a chance to question aguilar. >> we went to interview the priest and they told us, he's no longer here. he's gone. he was taken to mexico. >> aguilar had indeed gone to mexico. and how did he know the police were on their way?
recently released church files indicate he fled because he was tipped off by a top aide to cardinal mahoney. >> if we had been able to get hands on him, yeah, he would have been detained. >> after aguilar fled, more reports of abuse surfaced. the district attorney later filed a warrant charging aguilar with 19 counts of lewd acts against a child. aguilar landed back in mexico city. even after all the charges against him was still an active priest. he was reassigned to this church. he eventually left the mechanics cal capital and worked at a church in the state of pueblo, and the accusations of abuse continued. mr. martinez is a mexican journalist who has interviewed many who say they were abused by aguilar. she's also interviewed aguilar. >> you talked to him on the telephone? >> yes, i talked to him. >> how did you feel when you got
off the phone with him? >> both angry and excited. i said i can't believe he's talking with me. >> aguilar repeatedly denied the allegations. five formal complaints have been filed against aguilar since his return to mexico in 1988. he's wanted in the state of pueblo for statutory rape. but authorities there tell us they've lost his trail. we decided to look for aguilar ourselves. and got a lead that he was last seen in the town of honokotopic, two hours west of capital city. >> you recognize him? >> yes. i've seen him twice. ameliano, a local farmer, takes us to a bus stop where he most recently saw aguilar. we asked emiliano if he
recognized aguilar from the news. >> yes. that's why i came with you. because i've seen him. >> at the bus stop, we met a woman who says she sees him regularly. she has no idea about his past. >> i saw him on the bus, and he said i should take care of my baby. that was all. >> she agrees to show us where she says aguilar gets off the bus. unfortunately, once in the neighborhood, the people we meet say they don't know him and our trail runs cold. back in mexico city, the spokesman for the archdiocese says the church has no further responsibility for aguilar. >> translator: here in mexico city, we have no news of victims from aguilar. i'm not saying he may not have done things, because we ever the impression that he did. the church has done what needed
to be done. it suspended nicholas aguilar. he is no longer a priest. >> but church officials did not defrock aguilar until 1999. they said it's not their job to hunt down suspects. but martinez does not see any evidence the police are looking for him. >> do you think one day he will be arrested here in mexico? >> i don't think so. >> gary tuckman, cnn. congress is about to kick in those spending cuts at midnight. tough tactics directed at him. more shocking testimony in the jodi arias trial. she says travis alexander abused her mentally and sexually. the latest on the court
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midnight on friday is getting close. that of course is when $85 billion in automatic federal spending cuts will trigger and the blame game is still alive and well in washington. "washington post's" bob woodward is in the thick of it. he slammed the president because of the budget cuts. lirch. >> under the constitution, the president is commander in chief and employs the force. and so we now have the president going out because of this piece of paper and this agreement, i can't do what i need to do to protect the country. that's a kind of madness that i haven't seen in a long time. >> woodward has been calling out the administration for days now, and he accused president obama of moving the goalpost in negotiations over the spending cuts. a short time ago in the situation room, he doubled down on that charge. he also said the white house has pushed back hard in response to what he wrote. listen. >> and it was said to me in an
e-mail by a -- >> what was said? >> it was said very clearly, you will regret doing this. >> who sent that e-mail to you? >> well, i'm not going to say. >> was it a senior person at the white house? >> a very senior person. >> earlier i talked to senior political analyst and republican consultant and senior contribute tore margaret hoover. david, it kind of bog gels the mind that here we are facing another congressional crisis and they're not even meeting with the media until friday when it takes effect. >> the media has made it very hard for folks. going around the country i find americans are turned off and tuned out with what's going on because they're so angry with the antics. they want to know, why can't both sides get along? i can't remember a time when we seemed so leaderless, that no
one is stepping up and taking the reins and saying, okay, guys, this is serious. the country really could suffer here. >> morgan, do you buy that it is a crisis? now you have the white house seeming to go into overdrive, the attorney general today talking about this is going to endanger people's safety. i just want to play some of what he said. >> there are not going to be as many fbi agents, atf agents, dea agents, prosecutors who are going to be able to do their jobs. they are going to be furloughed. >> you have members of the republican party saying that it's smoke and mirrors, that the administration is crying wolf, that it's fear-mongering. >> this is going to have an impact on this country. anybody who says that's not true is either lying or saying something that runs contrary to the facts. >> do you buy that? >> it's hard to tell -- most americans don't buy that. i think this is fearmongering, i think this is scare tactics. i think it's very hard to say in budgets that have increased 17%
since the beginning of obama's first tierm. by taking 5% away from those budgets, armageddon is on us. it doesn't make sense to ax the budget. it makes sense to use a scalpel. give the president the flexibility to at least figure out where it makes sense to tighten and be smart about these cuts so the government can do its regular functioning. we don't want to undermine the functioning of government but we want to be smart about these cuts. >> here's the problem, okay? when you say give the administration the flexibility, you're still taking the pound of flesh, you're just telling somebody else to take the pound of flesh for you. but the other part is, this is the biggest problem with the fearmongering, crying wolf issue. >> so you agree. >> here's the biggest problem with the argument. at this point, something is going to happen. the person who has the most to
lose if they are, in fact, crying wolf is the white house. so if nothing happens and the white house has said all of this is going to happen, they have the most to lose. >> do you think they're crying wolf? >> no, i don't think they're crying wolf, i think they're intentionally allowing cuts to go on that will be painful. with all due respect, it was this white house that opposed this bill with the rigidity built into it. now they say it's going to shut down the air traffic that makes travel possible. the white house, it does seem to me on this issue ought to say, yes, we would like more flexibility, it's the responsible thing to do to minimize the disruptions and to minimize the negative impact on so many people's lives. you can find other ways to make these cuts. instead they said, oh, well, we don't want people to get complacent about having budget cuts. my goodness, the role of the president is first and foremost to protect the citizenry.
and i think that's where he's got to step up here. >> you can shift the entire blame and burden of these $85 billion in cuts onto the president and have him -- wait, wait -- have him make those cuts in the next seven months and think he's going to be able to do that in some kind of very easy kind of way? is that what you're saying? >> i think there will be some pain. but what i'm saying is don't we have an obligation -- >> awithout a lot of gain. >> there are some cuts you can make going forward that don't need to be made like this. >> so you think the white house is intentionally trying to hurt americans so they can make their point? >> i am saying the democrats are willing to let this bill go forward and stay in its current rigid form instead of asking for flexibility so they keep the people working at the airports, they keep the people working in the inspections. >> you're saying the white house is trying to intentionally inflict pain to make a point. that's the way it sounds to me.
>> i am saying i think they are willing to have -- call it the washington monument syndrome in washington. you get some cut in budget and the first thing the bureaucrats do is close down the washington monument because they know there will be screams. they're letting a washington monument type situation develop here, when they should say, look, we would like the flexibility to minimize the disruptions. i agree you have to find a balance at the end of the day. but it seems to me in the meantime, when these cuts fall, why put the country through the ringer? i'm one who put a lot of blame on republicans the last two years of the first term, but now i think the blame is shared on this one. i think the democrats and the president deserve as much blame as the republicans do on this one, and they're both responsible to get us out of this mess. it's crazy. my working assumption, anderson, and i think one of the reasons the stock market went up sharply in the face of this, is that they will come to some kind of
agreement in two or three weeks, but people suffer unnecessarily, we have unnecessary disruptions, because the people we entrust with enormous amounts of power, the president, the democrats and, yes, the republicans share in this, they're not acting responsible. they're not acting like grown-ups. jodi arias back on the stand today talking about the day she killed her ex-boyfriend, travis alexander, she says, in self-defense. the testimony today was not about the killing itself but the details of their relationship, a lot of phone sex, text messages. we'll show you inside the courtroom, ahead. you know how painful heartburn can be. for fast, long lasting relief, use doctor recommended gaviscon®. only gaviscon® forms a protective barrier that helps block stomach acid from splashing up-
answering more questions about her steamy text messages about the man she killed, her ex-boyfriend. will the jury agree and will she get the death penalty? ahead. are open for everyone to enjoy. we've shared what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. bp's also committed to america. we support nearly two-hundred-fifty thousand jobs and invest more here than anywhere else. we're working to fuel america for generations to come. our commitment has never been stronger. [ male announcer ] how could a luminous protein in jellyfish, impact life expectancy in the u.s., real estate in hong kong,
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she first denied she was even there and then blamed the murder on an intruder and now says it was self defense. she's on the stand fighting for her own life and kind of smirking in the process. arias could get the death penalty if convicted. so much of the trial has been focused on their sexual relations. they're now chronologically up to the day arias killed alexander, but it's stuck on the sex they had that day and dirty text messages and phone sex that they had, a subject the trial has been mired in over and over and over again. we warn you, as always, the testimony is pretty graphic. >> jodi arias had a nickname for travis alexander. she told the court she liked to call him hotty biscotti. why did she shoot him, then, stab him dozens of times and slit his throat? in the tapes played today, arias
seemed to be enjoying their relationship, especially their sex life. >> do you remember the first time you and i grinded at ehrenberg? it was so hot. >> that strongly contradicts her testimony that alexander physically and sexually abused her and made her feel like a prostitute. here's more. >> i really would like to marry a return missionary but like you, somebody who can be freaky. i'm worried i might feel like a wilting flower is all. who never really blossomed to her full potential, at least in the sexual realm. i feel like i have with you, but like i still have plenty of blossom time left. >> one of the other things we know from that conversation in terms of your blossoming is that you and mr. alexander discussed making a movie, right? >> yes. >> and you discussed making a sexual movie, correct? >> yes. >> it wasn't like you were telling him, no, i don't want to do that sexual movie.
you actually were into it as much as he was, right? >> yes. >> the couple's text messages about their plans for the movie were shown in court. in one text, arias suggested she wanted to dress up and more. >> it also implies or indicates that it's you that's the person who likes this sort of activity and looking like a horny little schoolgirl, right? >> yes. >> reporter: it's no secret jodi arias hasn't exactly been forthcoming with the truth, not only about her relationship with travis alexander, but also about what really happened the night she killed him. first she told investigators she wasn't even at his house that night. then she changed her story, telling investigators and a reporter from "48 hours" na it was that it was a home invasion with two masked intruders. the interview was played in part, telling about her massive escape as her boyfriend lay
dying. >> at that point i just ran. i pushed right past him and i flew down the stairs. it was like i wasn't even in my body, so i'm trying my best not to stumble down these stairs and i just went out sfas fast as i could, out the door and slammed doort behind me and got in my car and left. >> that's another version of events that occurred on december 14, 2008, correct? >> yes. >> and they're not true? >> yes. just different versions. i can't emanuel keep it all str. >> and then she told about a telephone call she made to the detective investigating alexander's murder. on that call she lied again, playing dumb about how he was killed, even though she knew she had stabbed him and shot him. >> when all this happened, i got a call last night. >> sometime between thursday and
last night. we're not sure yet. >> was there a gun, was there -- >> i can't say what type of weapon was used. do you know of him having any weapons at all in the house? >> it's two fists. >> that's it? >> randi kaye was in the courtroom today. she joins me now live. what's the story with the gun? where did she get it, do we know? >> reporter: anderson, she says she got the gun from travis alexander's closet, that it was his gun. but the state says no way, he didn't have a gun. they believe she stole that gun from her grandparents' home just days before the murder. they focused on this rental car that she used to drive to arizona earlier in the week. they say this spoke to premeditation because she apparently told the rental agency that she didn't want to rent a red car because it alerts police. she also filled up three gas cans so she wouldn't have any record of filling up in arizona,
which would put her there the day or week of the crime. and lastly, they said she flipped her license plate upside down so if anybody spotted her on the scene, they wouldn't be able to make out that license plate on the back. >> senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin and also criminalist mark geragos, a look at how the justice system works and how it sometimes doesn't. when you look at the photographs of jodi arias before the killing, i mean, she's blond, she sort of looks completely different. now on the stand she looks much more sort of demure. is that conscious? >> you've heard of a makeover, this is a make-under. she is very much intentionally looking less glamorous, less va-va-va-voom. she's got these very mousy glasses, she's got the conservative blouses, her hair is shoulder length.
defense attorneys always care about the appearance of their clients on the witness stand. the jury will almost recognize they're trying to be sold a very different jodi arias but it is a very -- >> as a defense attorney, you do it. >> you know, it's kind of a girn that if you've got somebody who is extremely attractive as a female, and they've done studies on it and shown jurors and especially female jurors are very turned off to that, for whatever reason. that's in the sociological kind of thing. she looks a little frumpy, and that's on purpose. i guarantee they've done it on purpose. >> also when you watch her testimony, she's always looking at the jury. is that somethingko counsel
clients to do? >> when the defense is questioning them, they go and talk to the jury. >> we always taught law enforcement to speak to the jury in cross examination. >> why is that? >> just to establish a rapport, to make the jury feel like they're a participant in the trial, not that they're just somehow sort of eavesdropping there. >> we harken back to last night. i thought the prosecutor wasover the top. you've only got one audience here. even though this is gaining some attraction on cable tv and elsewhere, the audience is the jury, and that's who you're playing to. that's who you want to have some credibility with. so you want to make sure that your witnesses are bonding with them to some degree and you're not turning them off. that's why it was so adamant yesterday about the prosecutor and what he was doing that i thought he could potentially turn the jury off. >> today i thought he dialed it back, and he had some very
effective stuff. randi mentioned at the end when you were talking to her, this business about the gas cans, i thought, was actually quite devastating. why in the world, when you're driving from california to arizona, do you fill up your car and then fill all these gas cans to take with you, other than to avoid buying gasoline in arizona to prove that you weren't there. a big issue in this case is premeditation, and that gas can thing i thought was very powerful stuff. >> absolutely devastating stuff. he is remarkably different today than he was yesterday. yesterday he was roundly criticized, me included, with being over the top. today he was a lot more effective. and if he just got in there. less is more a lot of times, and i counsel lawyers on this all the time. you don't have to just sit there and beat the hell out of them. get in there, talk about the gas cans, talk about the gun. >> rather than a scattershot approach. >> you don't need to be in there
for a lengthy amount of time. make your points and get out. >> covering up the car, covering the license plate, i don't want to buy gas in arizona. this is a woman who was planning for a long time to kill this guy. >> you're starting today to paint a picture of somebody who is diabolical. if they want the death penalty, and obviously they've got it on the table and there are all kinds of accoutrements they have to go through, and hoops, and that's what you have to do. >> when you counsel your client to look at the jury and stuff, do you day after day try to assess what the jurors are thinking -- >> hour by hour, minute by minute. >> if you counsel that client to look at a particular juror because you think they're on you're side. >> you would speak to have the
clients speak to jurors in particular? >> absolutely. >> i never did that. >> remember, it isn't the 12. you're looking for whoever is going to drive that jury. there is usually only one or two on any jury. >> in a death penalty case, you don't need an nim onymity. she was born male, identified as female. what the school banned her from doing and how her parents are fighting back. caught on tape just minutes after killing a swimm erer. we'll be back. and three times the coverage. now when you buy one kyocera duraxt rugged phone for $69.99, you'll get four free. other offers available. visit a sprint store, or call 855-878-4biz.
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welcome back. let's get you caught up on some of the other stories we're following. deb is here with the stories. >> hagel was sworn in as the secretary of defense. he took the oath in a private ceremony at pentagon his first day of work. his brutal sentiments a thing of the past. the parents of a child are taking it public. the school banned 6-year-old cory mathis from using the boys' bathroom. he was born a male but identifies as a female. they believe they acted unfairly. caught on tape just minutes before this video was shot. that shark killed a swimmer off the new zealand west coast. the shark, reportedly a great white, was 12 to 14 feet long. >> ridiculousness next.
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